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Stephen Law and the Barefoot Bum have both written numerous articles about relativism. The Bum has some particularly interesting thoughts, while Law's debate is intriguing because of the exaggerated poles of debate he seems to be operating with. He sets up what appears to be a phoney dichotomy between Authoritarianism (the belief in one overall moral truth) and Relativistic non-judgementalism (unappealing idea that all moral beliefs are equally convincing) largely borrowed from the religious fundamentalists he seeks to combat. If you find this article interesting I suggest you check out their sites.

There is a prevalent point of view which holds that morality should have some foundation in objective truth and fact. This idea seems to me entirely wrong-headed in that it mischaracterises the nature of moral belief. A scientific theory can be true but morality seems to depend on conventions, emotions and beliefs.

Many religious believers think that morality has foundation in truth because under such systems there seems to be a correct way to live one's life. Such a viewpoint makes sense in that religions have a hugely ritualistic character and there is often an emphasis on correct ways of living. However, this viewpoint depends on the existence of a god. Many people believe the existence of a god improbable and so the dependence of moral truth on such a controversial being is extremely unsatisfactory, at least for those who have not had the Road to Damascus moment.

Law interestingly seems to be a radical atheist and a believer in non-relative moral truth but sadly despite my attempts to press him he did not provide me with an explanation of what he believes these non-relative moral truths are. Professional philosophers are by instinct very careful and so I hope such an account will be forthcoming. I'm sure it will be interesting even if I suspect he will have difficulty convincing myself and many others.

A common example in the literature of a non-relative moral truth is "killing a child for fun is morally wrong". Most of us would assent to this statement and we would be vaguely disturbed by other people we met who believed differently and started recounting how they got their kicks every afternoon. Yet despite the unappealing nature of this statement and the fact I would never want to live in a society that held it true, the idea that it is a non-relative truth seems extremely odd even if it is the kind of attitude we would be extremely proud of holding.

The best way it seems to me to retain sense of moral attitudes is to assert that all our moral beliefs and emotions are interconnected. The strength of our belief that "killing a child for fun is morally wrong" is not undermined by the consciousness that it is dependent on all sorts of other beliefs. We need only consider the proposition transposed to the animal kingdom and we will realise such qualms do not arise in interspecies interaction. The need to communicate and dialogue about morality thus becomes greater when it is realised that there is "no non-relative moral truth" because it concedes that people can be convinced by your beliefs and yet the fact that disagreement arises need be nothing to do with one side being objectively right.

As this is a blog I'd like to continue this discussion later and provide some real arguments for the belief there are no non-relative moral truths. Yet I hope this has provided a rough outline of the issues.

47 comments:

The Barefoot Bum said...

Steve Gimbel at Philosophers Playground weighs in on the issue with a comprehensive criticism of subjectivism, and I have responded to his argument.

The Barefoot Bum said...

It's a fairly straightforward observation that most people strongly disapprove of killing children for fun. Few people have to be convinced of the truth of the objective content (i.e. "killing children for fun is wrong") to actually disapprove. Indeed any conclusions we might be tempted to make about the objective content would be predicate on the prevalence of the belief.

If we were to establish the truth of the objective content on the basis of existing disapproval, then it's ipso facto unnecessary to use that objective truth to inculcate disapproval.

toby lewis said...

The problem is, however, that the majority moral opinion can often be uncomfortable although not in this fairly straightforward case. The problem with buck-passing to an objective truth to "inculcate" set moral beliefs is that this objective truth almost certainly does not exist. It is unnecessary and unlikely.

zola said...

Morality is and will never be a big debate of the cognitive variety alone.

But the "bridge" ( Zygmunt Bauman 1999) asked for remains significant.

We have bridges to cross us from this side to that side of a river ( between them and us as it were - Georg Simmel) and we have planes and boats and trains to travel too.

Morality - as a living spirit and a moving spirit - asks for bridges.

The internet is one such bridge. Ok sometimes and maybe.
But that is the "Maybe world" of morality is it not?

toby lewis said...

Obviously morality is not just about cognitivism and non-cognitivism, but such meta-ethical debate is fascinating.

Do you mean by the bridge that there is objective truth in morality? If so, what is it?

SteveG said...

Apologies for the length of this comment:

The key to the conversation is to keep from drawing a false dilemma out of the options. On one extreme you have ethical absolutism that contends that using some philosophical system, we can uniquely and completely describe what actions are morally permissible, morally necessary, and morally forbidden for every circumstance.

On the other extreme is moral relativism or subjectivism that contends that there can be no moral facts and that we are free to make them up as we choose and no rational argument could be the slightest bit meaningful in making ethical determinations.

Both, of course, are wrong. Ethical systems are capable of circumscribing the range of possible actions that are permissible in situations, absolutely excluding many -- such as torturing infants for fun -- on several grounds (these are described by the classical moral systems -- viture ethics, duty ethics, rights-based ethics, utilitarianism, and care-based ethics).

This does not mean that ethics is left cut and dry. In the large majority of situations all of these systems point in the same direction, but occassionally they don't (these are our long-standing, seemingly intractible moral conundrums). In those cases, we are left somewhere close to what the relativists are thinking of, there is necessarily a placxe for conflict and having to agree to disagree. There is a necessary place for personal reflection and deep deliberation -- but this is not subjectivism, this is a sort of pluralism well discussed by the Oxford philosophers Isaiah Berlin and Stuart Hampshire. Ethical theory does some vitally important work (something the relativists try hard to ignore), but it does not do all the intellectual heavy lifting. There is still a place for us to roll up our sleeves and engage in collective rational, full contact philosophy.

We need what I term "civil fucking discourse" here -- civil in that everyone gets a seat at the table, but uncivil (and counter to relativism) in that each proposal gets subjected to unflinchingly rigorous scrutiny, and those views that don't meet muster are rejected. the relativists have a good intuition -- there is a necessary and ineliminable place for personal reflection and there will be contrasting views that are very convincing -- but this does not mean that ethics devolves to a mere matter of taste. If I like vanilla ice cream best and you like chocolate best, there is nothing for us to argue about; but if you contend that abortion is never morally permissible and I say that it sometimes is, then we do have a point of contention to discuss rationally. The cases are simply different. Relativism is false.

toby lewis said...

Sorry for taking so long to respond. I was away this weekend.

The thing is, I would argue Oxford Pluralism is a type of relativism that I feel strongly attracted towards and in fact motivates me to defend moral relativism in that Berlin attractively sets out a stall for no "non-relative moral truths".

Now, when you separate taste and morality, surely talk about ice cream and chocolate is down at the level of cleanliness in morality? However, you might want to say that an aesthetic nihilism was equally disturbing in others as a moral nihilism would be. People who ignore aesthetic concerns in the building of surroundings have some fairly disturbing effects on the inhabitants of those places and long-term on the environment; somehow aesthetics and morality links up here.

Rational discussion can clearly take place in aesthetics as it does in morality but this does not need to depend on any non-relative moral truth. In fact, to appreciate insights in aesthetics and morality you need to have certain shared premises, this means people in the nineteenth century could be shocked or unimpressed by impressionism but nowadays we generally concede it was an interesting experiment, however some may still reasonably say the attack it started on the foundations of classical art led to a partial auto-destruction of painting as a discipline in general.

People who believe abortion is straightforwardly morally wrong let their belief in the sanctity of human life colour their thinking on this issue and also reaffirm that foetuses should be accorded this protection. Yet this perspective contrasts deeply to your and my reservations about such arguments which fail to take in to account population control, quality of life and the fact that a severely disabled child is far more likely to survive nowadays. There is clearly room for rational argument, yet the premises endorsed by the people in the dispute are so different that the clash involves a serious degree of non-rational argument and the use of propaganda to win the day.

The idea that there is non-relative moral truth is unhelpful in this debate and losing our belief in it does not lead to the simplistic subjectivism you view as so taboo. I would also say this subjectivism is not even true of aesthetics.

Tom Freeman said...

I think the notion of objective morality is pretty obscure (and since the Euthyphro, I don't think religion helps), but it also has quite widespread appeal.

Its psychological value is not so much as a useful premise in day-to-day moral debates (which will proceed in terms of rights, duties, consequences and the like) but more as a background assumption that makes those debates feel more meaningful and important than ones about aesthetic taste.

anticant said...

Easter greetings, Toby. Any chance of you reactivating this site? It's much more interesting than that other place you've abandoned it for!

toby lewis said...

I had written a carefully worded blogging retirement speech but sadly I managed to delete it.

Thanks for the vote of confidence in the site but I now have a job as a journo at least until the end of April. If they keep me on I feel that it is unfeasible keeping up blogging and working, simply because I am commuting and the last thing I want to do when I get home is turn on a computer having stared at one for eight hours in a working day. I´ve had a great time playing the philosophe/political commentator and it has been a good lark with plenty of festive cameraderie yet I think I´m going to need to call it a day on the blogging front.

Otherwise I may well be back in May with the upside to my unemployment being that I can resume blogging. I really hope the future is bright everyone here and maybe I will be back to dust off the cobwebs here and to begin playing with some philosophical ideas. Thanks to everyone who has patiently read my stuff and tried (against all the odds) to get something out of it, or, on a good day, even start a valuable discussion.

anticant said...

Very pleased about the job, but sad about the blog. Don't close this site - your earlier posts are well worth revisitng.

All the very best to you and Ana.

toby lewis said...

Thanks for that. I've been so hectic that I haven't been able to visit here since you left your comment. All the best,

Toby

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